Initial E-mail to Vixen Optics Support:
From: Mark Jordan
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 6:43 AM
To: support@vixenoptics.com
Subject: New GPD2 Mount, Disappointment
I recently purchased a new Vixen GPD2 mount from Telescopes.com, and finally got it on the pier last night for the first time (first light). I was very impressed with the Polar Scope setup, after aligning the Polar Scope to the R.A. Axis I did my variation of the Kochab's Clock method for Polar alignment seen here:
http://www.thestardeckobservatory.com/Polaralign.html
I found the Polar scope to be extremely accurate, and can say it is far beyond the toy like Polar Scopes I have found in the "Chinese Clone" mounts I have owned in the past. This higher quality showed up during my drift alignments, using a 10 minute window vs the traditional 5 minute, the East - West alignment was dead on. There was no perceptible drift during the 10 minute period, PE was estimated to have met or exceeded the advertised +/- 10". The North - South alignment was just as close. This shows the Polar scope setup in the mount to be very stable and accurate. I was impressed by both this and the minimum periodic error of the mount, so what has disappointed me?
The axis of the mount are so stiff as to not allow for an accurate balancing of the mount. I backed the cluthes completely off and still found it too stiff, the mount axis just remained at level parallel to the ground no matter where I moved the counter weights or OTA center of balance fo the Declination. I cannot believe this is as it should be, balance is a key factor when using a GEM for AP. Also there would seem to be a huge amount of back lash present. I know how to adjust for this problem, but should I allow some run on time on the mount first? Being able to properly balamce the mount might also help a little in this respect too. I have come to expect the stiff axis and the poor back lash from the cheaper copies of the Vixen mounts, but really expected to be done with this type of maintenance problems with the more expensive real McCoy that is suppose to be of a much higher quality. I know the worm gear will always need to be adjusted as the mount is used and they are -run in-, but just really didn't expect it to be as bad or worse than my prior chinese made GEMs right out of the box.
Thank you for your prompt attention.
Mark Jordan
(AKA The Mad One)
Reply From Vixen Optics Customer Support:
Support at Vixen Optics <support@vixenoptics.com> wrote:
From Support at Vixen Optics Wed Aug 27 11:41:16 2008
Return-Path: <support@vixenoptics.com>
X-Originating-IP: [76.162.254.42]
Hi Mark,
I am happy and sad! Glad you found the Polar Scope and Worm Gear PE to your satisfaction and am very sorry the Backlash and Stiffness of Axis is problematic. Of the two concerns you have the backlash has me most concerned. One piece of information I did not get is how are you driving the gears. Are you using a Single axis or Dual Axis drive, or perhaps the Starbook-s Go-To system? Either one there are some brass transfer gears that drive the RA worm, have you checked that the set screw that holds all of these in place is indeed very securely fastened, as perhaps one is loose and the backlash you are seeing is the loose setscrew catching from one side to the other of the flattened drive gear shaft?
Perhaps you would like to call me at 949-429-6363 and we could speak for a few moments about what may be happening, I want to make sure you are a happy customer!
Clear Skies,
Mike Fowler
Vixen Optics
www.vixenoptics.com
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2nd E-mail to Vixen Optics Customer Support Upon Reoccurence Of The Problem:
From: Mark Jordan
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 9:33 AM
To: support@vixenoptics.com
Subject: GPD2: SN2106..........more issues...resolved??
Hello,
As stated in my last communication with you, I had corrected the initial issues in this mount with the back lash and overly tight axis rotations. The rotation issues returned in the R.A. axis on the second night out after the attempts to correct it the first time. I once again pulled the R.A. clock & setting circles, the PAS, and went in to check the axis nut again. This time I decided to take the nut back cc a couple of turns and re-seat it & found the root cause of the issues with the R.A. axis being a bit too stiff. When I reset the torque on the R.A. Axis the first time I noticed the set screws in the axis nut were tight, so tight that I bent the original Allen wrench that came with the mount getting them backed off to reset the nut. This should have alerted me to the problem I encounted this time around.
I took the axis nut back CC about three turns and it proceeded to freeze up, having delt with several similar setups in "other" mounts I knew what the prolem was & started gradually working the nut back and forth to get it competely off. I ened up having to bore the index pin holes out a size up to 7/64" as the smaller pins on my index face pin spanner were beginning to bend. The nut came off using the pin spanner with the larger diameter index pins and I was then able to get a good look at the root cause of the problems with the Axis having issues.
There were small flake like pieces of metal in the axis and embedded in the plastic recessed Axis nut bushing. The were some aluminum tracings from having to force the nut off, but these were along the threaded shaft, and pretty obviously from the aluminum axis nut having been bound by the threads of the axis shaft being slight marred by the originally overly tight set screws. The plastic bushing in the axis nut had some slight scoring on the face of it from contact with the loose metal bits prior mentioned. I took the nut in cleaned is up with a bronze clean up brush, cleaned out the mount and the Axis shaft with the same brush and compressed air. Put everything back together and other than still being a little stiff everything seems to be moving OK.
I have included some pictures of what I found, #228 is obviously a little bit of thread shed from having to get the axis nut off. The other 2 while not of great photographic quality do show a bit of the plastic bushing scoring as well as a little bit of the small metal flakes found in the mount between the bushing and the mount's bearing surface.
On a possitive note: I had the mount up and running again last night all seemed to go very well. When I did the drift alignments last night I watched the "seesaw" motions indicative of periodic error, & again just by eyeball no measurement software I noticed the movement was less than 2 diameters of a star of about +8.0 magnitude during the seesaw motion of the PE. This translates to a PE estimate of 5 - 8 as over a 10 minute period... consistantly durning both the East - West drift checks & the North - South checks.... That's damn good for a GEM of this design! One of these days after I am sure I have this thing running like it should I'm going to run an actual measured check of the PE, it really looks good via eyeball. I use the DSI-P with Andy Raiford's Startarg application to do my drift alignents so it amonts to the same fov ratio as close to a 6 - 8mm eyepiece in the 1005mm x 203mm Newtonian. When I do the reviews of this mount on my Star Deck site I would like to have more than just "I eyeballed the PE at"... looks better to have an actual measurement!
I can see a GoTo - guidable mount drive of a little better quality than the Autostar retrofit in the future, after I get my "fun money" account built back up to a comfortable level. I did manage to finally get a couple of 35mm shots with it last night, still have around 4 frames to shoot on the current roll before I will see if all things were in order duing those shots... um .. not just the mount, the other little things that have a tendancy to bolix up astrophotos. Focus, frameup, errant aircraft missed flying through the shot, drive glitch, autoguide glitch.....! I love this hobby......it's all of the little challenges getting that once in a while oh so right shot that make up half the fun! Of course it would be A LOT more fun if I had to deal with a lot less of those little things that are not oh so right, hence why I spent the money on the Vixen GPD2 to replace the Meade LXD75. I hope this current trend of those oh so familiar "issues with the mount" soon comes to a halt. If I wanted a mount I had to maintenance & jack with every 3rd or 4th outting I'd of saved my money for a better CCD camera and kept using the Meade LXD!
Thank You;
Mark Jordan
Mark Jordan
(AKA The Mad One)
Reply From Vixen Optics Customer Support:
Support at Vixen Optics <support@vixenoptics.com> wrote:
From Support at Vixen Optics Tue Sep 2 05:31:31 2008
Return-Path: <support@vixenoptics.com>
Hi Mark,
Thank you very much for letting me know and sending the photos in the next email, I will definitely be forwarding these too Vixen Japan.
Please do let me know what your final PE measurement is! I look forward to seeing some Astrophoto from you!
Thank you for alerting me to the problem,
Mike
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3rd E-mail to Vixen Optics Customer Support Upon Reoccurence Of The Problem:
Mark Jordan wrote:
From Mark Jordan Sat Sep 6 21:52:50 2008
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 21:52:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Jordan
Subject: RE: GPD2: SN2106..........more issues...resolved??
To: Support at Vixen Optics <support@vixenoptics.com>
Unfortunately Mike there will be no measured PE or much in the way of photography coming from this mount & I. When I went to balance the mount tonight after changing out equipment setups the R.A. axis has once again become so stiff as to be able to remain horizontal with a several pounds difference from cw to equipment. This is yet another spoiled outing and I have had enough, I'm putting the Meade LXD75 back on the pier, while it does not track as smoothly and has much worse PE I can at least depend upon it to perform consistently with every change in set up.
I am going to get rid of the GPD2 and save my money for a quality GEM. I'm quite sure I could break this GPD2 down, go completely through it and fix this problem, just like I have done with several CG5 clones for both myself and others, but some how I just want to be rid of it. I am an "astronomy hobbiest" the term amateur astronomer just really doesn't fit me well. I do this for some relaxing time to relieve myself of some of the built up stress from my career, this mount is now just one more unnecessary source of stress I can eliminate from my life! Thank you for your time and help in the matter no hard feelings towards you personally, but I am done with it, the Vixen GPD2 obviously is not the mount for me.
No Reply From Vixen Optics Customer Support
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4th E-mail to Vixen Optics Customer Support After No Reply To 3rd Message:
Mark Jordan wrote:
From Mark Jordan Wed Sep 10 06:18:36 2008
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 06:18:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Jordan
Subject: RE: GPD2: SN2106..........more issues...resolved??
To: Support at Vixen Optics <support@vixenoptics.com>
I find the silence on this matter disturbing, I guess I will have to work this out through Telescopes.com. I can fix the root cause of this problem fairly easily, it is singular in nature and all of the other components of the mount were fine upon inspection.
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Reply From Vixen Customer Support On 09/16/2008 after Letter to Brian Deis:
Support at Vixen Optics <support@vixenoptics.com> wrote:
From Support at Vixen Optics Tue Sep 16 08:55:51 2008
Return-Path: <support@vixenoptics.com>
From: "Support at Vixen Optics" <support@vixenoptics.com>
To: "'Mark Jordan'"
CC: "'Brian Deis'" <b.deis@vixenoptics.com>
Hi Mark,
My Boss, Brian Deis, left on my desk the letter you had written to us (me) here at Vixen Optics and I am shocked honestly. First let me please apologize for any apparent lack of communication on my part, however I would also like you to know that for an unknown reason your two emails were sent to my "Junk Email" box. After searching all my past emails, and first finding how happy you had been with Vixen and our support and nothing else. I then check my Junk Email and found your two additional emails for support.
I am glad your mount is working and am sorry for any apparent lack of communication on our part, I certainly do wish you would have called me however as I am not only usually readily accessible in the office at 949-429-6363, but answer my cell phone for Vixen Support most nights till 10PM at 949-689-9338. All of that however would not have solved this email problem, I will work on that.
Please do know that we take support very seriously and I am sorry we did not meet your expectations. I hope the above information will allow you to change your mind about Vixen Optics, please know that I am here to help however I can.
Clear Skies,
Mike Fowler
Vixen Optics
www.vixenoptics.com
m.fowler@vixenoptics.com
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Email Communication After Vixen Optics User Group Messages Were Blocked:
From: Mark Jordan
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 3:31 PM
To: Support at Vixen Optics
Subject: You are censoring my group posts now?!!
Mike (skeyeguy)
I should start by asking why you have been censoring my posts on the Vixen group, but I guess that pretty much confirms my first impressions of Vixen & your customer support policies. If you sell a lemon you basically just let the customer suck on on it. I had changed my mind about Vixen's customer support after our last communications, but I guess my gut feelings on the matter are correct.
As stated I have on my own managed to correct the troubles with the mount, and feel it is basically a well constructed piece of equipment, but prone to the same deficiencies as all mounts of this 144 tooth worm gear GEM design. The mount has redeemed its self to some degree, but censoring any discussion of the product that is not 100% positive confirms my initial impressions.
Overall I'd have to say my experience with your company has not at all been a positive one.... and unfortunately regardless of how well I eventually get the GPD2 performing it will always have the stink of lemon on it.
Emails marked as junk & blocked, posts censored, the damn shame of it is the whole affair could have been a positive one instead of negative, most of the negative lies with poor treatment & response from your support end. Don't look for many positive endorsements of Vixen products from me in the future, If I am some how mistaken please explain, but the evidence continues to show otherwise.
The Sarcastic Reply From Mr. Mike Fowler Of Vixen Optics:
From Support at Vixen Optics Sun Oct 12 15:19:27 2008
Return-Path: <support@vixenoptics.com>
From: "Support at Vixen Optics" <support@vixenoptics.com>
To: "'Mark Jordan'"
Hi Mark,
Nothing so sinister, I took a few days off as I have been travelling and am on the road again sitting here in the airport catching up on email.
I think it would be fair and balanced to state that you took the mount apart and that I have offered my cell phone number several times if you would like to call me. Sorry your emails went to my junk folder, truly no plot against you! If you have a problem and would like immediate help, please call me at 949-689-9338, that's my personal phone. Happy to help however I can.
Clear Skies,
Mike
The Final E-mail Communication/Reply To Vixen Optics Customer Service:
From: Mark Jordan
Sent: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 17:53:44
To: Support at Vixen Optics
Subject: You are censoring my group posts now?!!
No surprises in that fair and balanced statement, it's about what I eventually expected to hear regarding the matter. I have left the VixenOptics group not being able to post there was no point in staying anymore. This is the second such incident of messages unresponded to or otherwise having a great delay of response, doesn't look sinister, but sure looks bad twice!
As for calling your phone, pretty much would have wound up like the first call a waste of my dime as you pointed out I have broken the mount down to address the inefficiencies from the factory based on that first call. I realized from the point I took care of the poor assembly problems from the Vixen Factory, VixenOptics would likely duck out on the warranty if further problems were encountered, no surprises there either.
Since finding and fixing the damaged threads and removing the loose bits of steel from that damage the mount has been performing better. A couple of more adjustments to the declination axis and the mount is finally beginning to perform like it should have at first. I have just about spent as much time on the Vixen getting the problems straightened out and adjustments taken care of as I had all total in the Meade LXD75 over the last couple of years. Definitely not what I expected, but nothing I can't handle fixing. If I had bought this mount used I might feel a little differently about having to go through it to get it up snuff, but I didn't. I bought it new, perhaps my expectations of Vixen and the GPD2 were way too high,and the Chinese are doing a much better job of imitation than I first thought.
As I have stated, the basic quality of components is there, the quality of finish assembly however has left something to be desired. After all of the B.S. now in the past history of this particular mount and my communications with Vixen Optics it will not likely be one of my favorite pieces of astronomy equipment. Yes once I have finally begun to get some consistent & reliable performances out of it I will give it a fair and balanced write up, just as I did for my LXD75 when I pulled it off of the pier for the Vixen GPD2.
Happy Vixen owner..... satisfied Vixen owner......... well at least a Vixen owner anyhow!