Initial E-mail to Vixen Japan Customer Support:
Mark Jordan wrote:
To whom it may concern,
I purchased a new Vixen GPD2 telescope mount from Telescopes.com on August 17th of this year, which I received August 20, 2008. Upon putting the mount into service I noticed the R.A. axis was so stiff I could not obtain a proper equipment balance. The balance could have as much as a 2.25kg change and the R.A. axis would just remain in the same horizontal position unchanged. I contacted customer support out of San Clemente, CA and initially had a very rapid response. After brief telephone conversation with the rep it was established I was capable of looking into and correcting the potential cause of the issue. I performed the check out and indeed found the cause to be as suspected, performed the fix which did not hold.
After the first fix the problem went away for the first outing, but returned again on the next outing. I pulled the Axis nut completely off of the axis for the next attempt to fix the problem, found during the removal of the nut the R.A. Axis threads had been very deeply scarred from the original condition of the small Allen set screws used to lock the nut in place. When I did the first release and reset of the axis nut I ran into the Allen set screws being so tight I actually bent the Allen wrench while trying to back them off. Needless to say the damaged R.A. axis threads made removing the R.A. nut a little difficult... bent the pins in my face pin spanner wrench. Once removed I cleaned up the nut & axis threads with the axis still in place in the mount replaced and reset the axis nut.
The mount worked as it should for the next outing after this repair........ next outing the problem returned, now I am not a happy Vixen mount owner! I contacted the San Clemente Offices again, but after 3 days have received no response. I pulled the mount off of the pier and fully removed the R.A. axis to find the Axis threads had been deeply scarred by he original condition of the Allen set screws, and could see where the set screw will slip back into the original divots in the R.A. axis thread during use of the mount allowing for the nut to be slipped back into an too tight position and then held there once the set screw has caught into the original damage. The position of the set screws is not very far off of the original factory set position that caused the initial problems which is why is can slip back into it.
I have enclosed pictures of the the damage caused by this condition, it is ashamed this problem exists in this mount because if it was not for this continual recurring problem my experiences with the mount would have been quite pleasing. It appears to have exceptionally good tracking and PE those times I was able to get it setup and running correctly, but unfortunately these recurring problems have resulted in a very disappointing experience with the mount. I find I cannot based upon my experiences so far give it a positive rating, or review as it has now twice been outperformed by the LXD75 it was purchased to replace. Outperformed in that the LXD75 is still fully operational after over 2 years of service without a component failure or lock up as well as being returned to the primary position each time the Vixen failed to operate as it should. Even given the excellent performance of the mount when it was performing as it should, it had to be taken out of service while still brand new to have repairs performed.
I will get this mount up to snuff eventually as I take the silent treatment as a sign I am on my own, likely sell it off after getting it fit to sell to some one else and saving my hard earned cash for a reliable mount of better quality than my lowly Chinese cloned LXD75. I will not sell it of until it is working properly, I just don't do business that way, but I find I really get no joy from the GPD2 at all even when it works as it shouldfor the first outings after readjustments. I think it's the feelings of disappointment andanimosity that I have developed for it, just waiting for it to fail again, kind of spoilsthe fun of my Astronomy hobby.
Mark Jordan(AKA The Mad One)The Star Deck Observatory
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2nd E-Mail to Vixen Japan Customer Support After 10 days no Response to First Message:
Mark Jordan wrote:
Don't see me recommending folks purchase new products from you.
http://www.thestardeckobservatory.com/News_Updates.html
You need to do a better job of assembly!
Reply To First E-mail After Sending 2nd Message With Star Deck Link:
Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:08:39 +0900
From: "Vixen Info" <info@vixen.co.jp>
Vixen Info wrote:
Dear Sir,
We have read your letter carefully in regard to what occurred on your GPD2mount. We have to conclude that you tampered with the mount and made it worse unfortunately. Even if you felt that the R.A. axis was too stiffextraordinarily to balance the mount correctly, however that is extremelyunusual and we have never heard it before, you shouldn't have attempted todisassemble the mount. Unlike Chinese products each Vixen mount is preciselyassembled and inspected at our factory in Japan before shipment. Tampering with its inside hindering us from finding a clue to the cause of a problem.We are sorry say that your doings such made our warranty on it void as theresult. We would like you to return the mount to Vixen Japan if you want usto repair it completely.
Yours faithfully,
Vixen Co., Ltd.
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3rd E-mail Message - Reply To Vixen Japan:
Mark Jordan wrote:
Yes, I did what the representative from Vixen Optics Mike Fowler told me on the phone conversation I had with him, He stated he felt I could handle the necessary repairs & adjustments without having to send it to him. Very clever, there's no way to prove his instructions as they were spoken over the phone not put in writing. If this is how you do business then as stated, you're a very dishonest company. As for the mount, as stated I was able to repair your poor assembly of the mount. I don't see torquing down the set screws on the R.A. Axis nut so tight at your factory it bends Allen wrenches when backing them off as precisely assembled. I took pictures of the problems as I encountered them and sent them off to Mr. Fowler of Vixen Optics who stated they would be forwarded on to your QC department, I guess that was more deceitfulness as you apperantly didn't get them.As for never having heard of the problem before likely you have not been listening to your end consumers, I have come across several people in various forms while asking about my problems who have stated the same situation of the axis being too stiff to balance which they were able to correct same as I did by releasing & resetting the axis nut. However none of them ran into the situation of the set screws being driven so deeply into the axis as to have left divots clear down into the surface of the Axis shaft.
As for your warranty, a warranty is only as good as the company that stands behind it.When a company is aware they have committed an error in the assembly of a product, gives the consumer misinformation, then uses that misinformation to duck out of their warranty..... Well as I said a warranty is only as good as the company standing behind it.
The mount had issues with the backlash out of the box too, a 2 - 3 second delay with any direction change on either axis at the higher .5¡£¥· per second speed. That's not what I would call precisely assembled and inspected, Oh yea I adjusted that to a more acceptable and correct level too, so there you get to void your warranty again, as any disreputable company would.I am not asking you for a replacement mount, and have not. As I stated I was able to correct your poor assembly of the mount, I was simply pointing out my dissatisfaction with the mount and your company. A feeling and conclusion about your company being disreputable you have just confirmed in writing with your complete denial of any possible screw ups on your part and using the incident to free yourself of any further responsibilities with the mount. All you've managed to do by sending me this note is confirm in writing what I already knew. To operate on the ideal your company can make no mistakes and do no wrong and any problems lie with the customer is not only ridiculous, it's down right arrogant. Even Vixen makes mistakes weather they are willing to admit them or not, the deceitfulness, poor Quality Control, and flat denial of any culpability is not the reputation I had heard of Vixen. If you were truly the company you try to project yourself as, getting a report of even one product having slipped through your quality control with problems such as these would have set you to correcting the problems and issues it caused, not denying culpability.
Fixing this mount once the problem was located was easy enough, I am/was a certified hydraulics systems technician, certified heavy duty diesel technician, certified ferrous & alloy welding tech, as well as a build and fabrication tech for all sorts of intricate automobile assembly machines. While it has been several years since I last worked in those industries regularly since pursuing a career in fire service, I have retained that knowledge challenge, if I felt the motivation to I could go to a friend's 6 acre under roof machine & fabrication shop and make any replacement parts I might need for the mount. While in that industry we practiced real customer satisfaction policies, even if it was from the customer changing there original design specs. The customer always came first, and quite honestly had my friend recieved a complaint similar to the the one you have recieved on this GPD2 he would have insisted what ever was necessary to satisfy the customer be done.
As I have stated your company has proven good for only lip service, excuses, apolgies, slow or no responses to messages. You may
continue to fool everybody else, but you've fooled me once and that was enough. The saddest part of this whole affair is had it not been for
you poor quality control on this mount I'd have been a very satisfied customer. Since correcting your poor assembly of the mount it is
performing very well, I will just haveto remove your name from any parts of the mount as obviously you have disowned it. After fixing the
problem I was on the road to being satisfied, then the "lost emails" & non reponsiveness started from your company, and continued to the
point of nauseum. Had I not been so poorly treated after finding and fixing the issues I would have been quite happy with the mount...you
blew it dummies!
Vixen Japan Reply:
Vixen Info wrote:
Dear Mr. Jordan,
Thank you for your e-mail and we are sorry for your problem of a stiffed RA axis you encountered with your GPD2 mount. Also we deeply apologize for ourlong silence in that issue. Of course we received your photos from Mr. Fowlerof Vixen Optics when he alerted us to the problem. In a while we were informedthat the customer fixed his problem and we presumed the problem was solved.For your information, the three set screws on the axis nut are not directlyrelated to the tension of the RA axis rotation. They are to retain the axisshaft firmly. The tension can be changed by slightly loosening the axis nutitself. It seems that you have a very good experience in mechanical assemblingbut in our position as a manufacturer, adjustments of this kind should be madeby manufacturer or its qualified agent in principle so that our customers canenjoy the quality of our product for a long time. Thank you for your kindunderstanding. Yours faithfully, T. KawaiVixen Co., Ltd.
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4th E-Mail Message Replying to Vixen Japan's Last Message:
Mark Jordan wrote:
Hello again,
After receiving your last message I was originally not going to bother replying to you with why having the deeply damaged R.A. axis thread was the cause of the continual return of the stiff axis. You stated your engineers could not see this as the cause to the problem. They need to go into the repair and maintenance business for a little while to better understand things like a part developing a "memory" from a particular area being fatigued.
This "memory" is caused by a fatigued area of the part, either from a long time of mechanical pressure and wear on an area, or by an extreme "damage" to an area of a new part. The problem with the Axis thread in question is it had developed a "memory point" because of the screws being driven into the thread and axis so deeply as to have cause a deformity.
As you stated the cure to the R.A. being to stiff was to simply back the R.A. Axis nut off ever so very slightly. This is where the "memory point" created by the damage from the over tightened set screws would come into play. Each time after releasing the over torque, the new "set point" for the set screws would only be .060" (or about 1.5mm) back from the original set point with the deep thread damage. After several times slewing about and running the mount back in, the set screws would work back to the memory point and the problem would return. Slip back into the old holes so to speak, as the axis nut would come under rotational pressures during operation. The whole reason for the set screws in the first place, to stop the axis nut from being able to slip during the rotation of the mount under operational loads. This is why I could release the stiffness, only to have it return after a period of operation.Attempting to over torque the set screws to get them to hold properly is not an option under these circumstances, the screw point would simply slip back into the old damaged point again during the process of tightening it down slipping the axis nut back into the over torqued position again too. The cure or fix to the problem was rather simple once I identified the reason for the continual return of the problem after each repair attempt. I took the part to my friend's shop and simply turned off or removed a section of the the axis threads approximately 10mm long X 1 thread wide, and cleaned up the threads with a coarse steel wire wheel brush. This removed the "memory point" and when I reassembled the mount I reset the axis nut once again to the proper torque, and the problem has never returned in several outings.As for the total assembly quality of the mount out of your factory I still stand by what I have said about the mount slipping through your quality control in poor adjustment. As stated the mount had serious worm gear back lash on both worm gears out of the box as well as the aggravating issue of the returning over torque on the R.A. axis.
This is the very first photo taken with the mount in use on the early morning of August 27, 2008 prior to me ever touching anything to make any adjustments:
http://www.thestardeckobservatory.com/Star_Deck_Albums/main.php/v/TheStarDeck/OtherPhoto s/c11_ec200_75m_D2attemp.jpg.html
This is after the first set of adjustments when the problem returned:
http://www.thestardeckobservatory.com/Star_Deck_Albums/main.php/v/TheStarDeck/OtherPhotos/c20_ec200_80m_D2attemp.jpg.html
This is after the final repairs and adjustments were performed:
http://www.thestardeckobservatory.com/Star_Deck_Albums/main.php/v/TheStarDeck/35mm+Astro photos/35mm_Galaxies/M33_ec200_75m_083108.jpg.html
As of my last several outings most recent just last night, the problem has not returned, so yes the set screws and over torquing of the R.A.
axis were the root problem of the stiff axis situation. Yes I ended up doing all of the necessary repair work myself, as I was
receiving no responses from either you or your appointed representatives to my messages complaining of the returning situation. You stated I
"Tampered" with the mount and thereby voided the warranty, well in my opinion which I still stand by, a warranty is only as good as the
service of the company that underwrites it. The warranty wasn't worth the paper it was written on anyhow as the company (in this case
Vixen) did not respond to my requests for help until after they had been informed I had performed the repairs myself due to their
unresponsiveness on the situation. While that would seem to me the way Vixen does business, it is not the way in my opinion any reputable company conducts business, and I
have in my years dealt with many companies, both honorable & dishonorable. The overwhelming numbers being those that were very
reputable and honorable, you were given more than one chance to redeem you reputation. So why did I finally bother to respond to your last message? It is my hope that in pointing out to you what the problem was, why it was,
should yet another person be unlucky enough to encounter the same or a similar situation, Vixen will know how to fix it permanently. What is
ironic is I normally do not offer my diagnostic & repair services for free except to close friends and associates, neither of which category
does Vixen fit into. This last message is in hopes you will treat the next customer with such a problem in a much better matter than you did
me.
Reply From Vixen Japan:
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 17:13:50 +0900From: "Vixen Info" <info@vixen.co.jp>
Dear Mr. Jordan,
We appreciate your detailed analysis about the cause of the continual returnof the stiff axis on your GPD2 mount. We see no objection to it. Also thankyou for your valuable comments on improving Vixen's customer service. One again we are really sorry for our carelessness that we did not respondto your claim instantly. We will make our utmost effort to provide theproduct and service of good quality for our customers.
Yours faithfully,
T. Kawai
Vixen Co., Ltd.